Curse

Torqual · Mar 06, 2008, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Ask not why people are going W/Mo but why they are not using the other 8 classes as secondary. There's a lack of overly compelling reasons in the other 8. Plague Touch, Conjure X, Dash....woo.

Tyla · Mar 06, 2008, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Not really.
Conjure = more damage = good.
Plague Touch is kinda meh - Mending Touch ftw.
Shock = Unconditional KD ftw.
Rending Touch = Enchant Removal is good.

Seriously, Mending Touch is the only good reason you should go W/Mo, that and Hard-Res if you're talking PvE, but then DPSignet comes to mind.

Yet there's more things that you can do with other secondarys than Monk.
As I said, Shock = Unconditional KD.
Rending Touch = Free Enchant Removal
Conjure is sexy on damage.
I kinda like Grasping Earth.

Plague Touch is meh. /N is trash because of Mending Touch.

Torqual · Mar 06, 2008, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Your point about HBreeze, Torqual?
It's a bad skill and always has been.

This is exactly what I mean by outdated!

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Regeneration isn't a good way of healing at all - even Healing Signet mid-battle is more effective...

Are you talking about PvE or PvP, and what type? No answer is valid for all, so please don't assert so.

In PvE you should have a monk to heal you mid-battle. By investing in Tactics to get Heal Sig, you are nerfing the key purpose of your class/build which is damage.

In PvP your opponents will interrupt you. To get benefit of Heal Sig, you have to stop moving for 2 seconds and reduce your armour level by 40... to get a lousy 120-150 heal. The damage you are likely to take during this 2 seconds is generally equivalent to the benefit of the heal.

If you are playing the kind of PvP where you have specialised healers in the team (GvG, TA) then you don't need self-heal anyway. If you're playing RA or AB where you do need self-heal, you can do a lot better than Heal Sig. Actually, Regeneration IS a viable option when no specialised healer is available. Be careful making such statements as you are dissing Mystic Regen, Shadow Refuge, Troll Unguent and many other self-heal staples.

Regeneration can be pre-applied at full health and re-applied quickly mid combat. You can get the benefit while kiting or pursuing. In AB or RA standing still on -40 AL and spamming heal sig while others escape is just asking to be interrupted, or surrounded and cut down.

Healing Breeze note: it only takes 15 attribute points to get to Level 5 in Healing Prayers. This gives Healing Breeze of 18 seconds (with +20% enchants) of +6 Health regen: 216 health. It's really not that lousy at all.

By comparison (of Regen skills) Troll Unguent @5WSurvival gives 10 seconds of +5 regen: 100 health. And that's with a 3 second cast, not a 1 second cast.

Open your mind is all I am saying.

Killed u man · Mar 06, 2008, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Your point about HBreeze, Torqual?
It's a bad skill and always has been. Regeneration isn't a good way of healing at all - even Healing Signet mid-battle is more effective...

+10 Pips = 20 HP / second

Regen is a good way of healing, against pressure anyways, however PvP is mostly spikes

Tyla · Mar 06, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Open my mind?
It's bad for both.

And Regeneration Healing is nowhere near as good as straight-up healing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

Healing Breeze note: it only takes 15 attribute points to get to Level 5 in Healing Prayers. This gives Healing Breeze of 18 seconds (with +20% enchants) of +6 Health regen: 216 health. It's really not that lousy at all.

By comparison (of Regen skills) Troll Unguent @5WSurvival gives 10 seconds of +5 regen: 100 health. And that's with a 3 second cast, not a 1 second cast.

Healing Breeze can be stripped, Troll Unguent can't.
And Troll Unguent at 5 Wilderness Survival is bad, not only that but the breakpoints for Troll Unguent are every 2 attributes onto Wilderness Survival.

Oh yeah - Troll Unguent is 13 seconds.

@Killed u man: Regeneration is only truly effective with Blocking introduced - and only if the regeneration is unstrippable tbh...
Hence why Troll Unguent is also used coupled with Natural Stride, gotta love Natstride...

Torqual · Mar 06, 2008, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Right you are on the 13 seconds. Unconvinced by the rest. Anyone who says that anything is always better for everything is unlikely to be right.

Apart from Sentinels insignias which are always best. :P

Tyla · Mar 06, 2008, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Nothing is always better for everything.
But Healing Breeze is a bad skill in itself because of it being strippable, and I'm also right by the breakpoints on Troll Unguent by the way.

Stormlord Alex · Mar 06, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

Regeneration can be pre-applied at full health and re-applied quickly mid combat. You can get the benefit while kiting or pursuing. In AB or RA standing still on -40 AL and spamming heal sig while others escape is just asking to be interrupted, or surrounded and cut down.

Healing Breeze note: it only takes 15 attribute points to get to Level 5 in Healing Prayers. This gives Healing Breeze of 18 seconds (with +20% enchants) of +6 Health regen: 216 health. It's really not that lousy at all.

The big numbers look good...
Except that's over 18 seconds, with only 12 health gained a second - if you're under concentrated fire, Healing Breeze won't save you. All the maths in the world doesn't stop Breeze being bad.
Given the options available to a Warrior, outside of (occaisionally) Natural Healing on a W/D I basically don't bother with them at all.

I'd rather use that energy on useful skills like Frenzy, Bull's and the like to kill stuff. It's a pretty all-or-nothing approach, but self-heals for a warrior are terrible so it doesn't matter.

(btw... Healsig - wtb 1 sec cast, 8 recharge pl0x)

Torqual · Mar 06, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

I'd argue that blocking is MORE important when using Res Sig. Anything with >1 sec activation needs a cover stance to avoid interruption. You're right about stripping of course, but *in the two scenarios I would advocate Healing Breeze* (AB and RA) interrupts are encountered more often than stripping.

Stripping is restricted to Necro/Mesmer. But every profession has at least one skill that will either interrupt or knockdown.

Please please understand that I only advocate Regen/Healing Breeze for self-heal in RA and AB. No monk should use it, and self-heal isn't necessary where you can rely on a monk being there.

So, if anyone wishes to continue condemning Healing Breeze, please confine your criticism to RA and AB and suggest relevant alternatives.

Torqual · Mar 06, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

I'd rather use that energy on useful skills like Frenzy, Bull's and the like to kill stuff. It's a pretty all-or-nothing approach, but self-heals for a warrior are terrible so it doesn't matter.

You are right but I suspect you are talking about GvG/TA.

I am talking about AB and RA - suggesting scenarios where Healing Breeze is not only viable but very effective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

The big numbers look good...
Except that's over 18 seconds, with only 12 health gained a second - if you're under concentrated fire

Healing Breeze + kiting just might though.

Healing Breeze + Kiting > Healing Signet + Standing in AOE!

Stormlord Alex · Mar 06, 2008, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

So, if anyone wishes to continue condemning Healing Breeze, please confine your criticism to RA and AB and suggest relevant alternatives.

For AB, bring a monk.

For RA, I generally don't bother with a self-heal at all - my bar's too crowded with good skills that actually do something for me; than a trashy heal which is generally useless (no monk - Breeze won't save you; you get a monk - Breeze is pointless).

If I'm W/D for Rending Touch, I might spec Natural Healing, but that's it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

Healing Breeze + Kiting > Healing Signet + Standing in AOE!

Kite + Healsig.
I win.
And AoE is laughable in RA

Torqual · Mar 06, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

OK so you only play AB if there is a monk in the team, and with RA this suggests you are one of those people that just instantly quits if there's no monk in the party? (I hope not)

I play a LOT of AB both with the guild and on my own jumping into totally random parties. Even when great monks are available, I bring self-heal. There are many times when you or your party's monk dies and resses on the other side of the map. If you wish to be ineffective from then on, that's your choice.

And how do you kite while using Heal Sig? Is this some excellent use of lag!?

Stormlord Alex · Mar 06, 2008, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

OK so you only play AB if there is a monk in the team, and with RA this suggests you are one of those people that just instantly quits if there's no monk in the party? (I hope not)

I play Warrior in AB only if I'm in an organized guild or friends team; Warriors require more support.
If I'm hopping into PuGs, an Assassin or Ranger is an infinitely better skirmish class that doesn't care if your little PuG falls apart.

Quote:

And how do you kite while using Heal Sig? Is this some excellent use of lag!?

You kite till they give up, then Healsig. It's surprising how easy they stop chasing you when you're in Rush.

Flem · Mar 06, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

I play Warrior in AB only if I'm in an organized guild or friends team; Warriors require more support.
If I'm hopping into PuGs, an Assassin or Ranger is an infinitely better skirmish class that doesn't care if your little PuG falls apart.

You kite till they give up, then Healsig. It's surprising how easy they stop chasing you when you're in Rush.

Some players even go as far as to develop builds for the sole prupose of AB because they know that the teams get separated so easily. It's takes some creative thinking for these situations.

More then 90% of GW have to rely on PuGs for AB.

RA is pure PuG, and survivability is key.

isamu kurosawa · Mar 06, 2008, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

Some players even go as far as to develop builds for the sole prupose of AB because they know that the teams get separated so easily. It's takes some creative thinking for these situations.

More then 90% of GW have to rely on PuGs for AB.

RA is pure PuG, and survivability is key.

Yet that doesn't make healing breeze good.

Flem · Mar 06, 2008, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

Yet that doesn't make healing breeze good.

Doesn't make it bad either. It's just another skill with another downside. It's all about play style.

Tyla · Mar 06, 2008, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

Doesn't make it bad either. It's just another skill with another downside. It's all about play style.

No it isn't, it's a bad skill and always has been - as I said earlier.

Torqual · Mar 06, 2008, 09:11 PM // 21:11

I disagreed earlier as well.

Two good points about AB above. Yes, if you're a realist you'll play with your team but have a build that can survive/operate independently. Also, let it be said that Warrior is not the most effective class for AB anyway. I play 70% Ele, 10% Ranger, 10% Mesmer, 10% Warrior. The 70% Ele is when I just want to be sure of getting the win and the rest is for a break.

Anyway here's the build I use; Strength is 14 after runes and Sword 12. 560 health and 30 Energy.

[WMo Charging Sword AB;OQMU0qHFZ6SSg9VIWAGMFNF5VgEA]

Anyone that has

a) A better WMo build for AB
b) A better W*other build for AB please show it and I will try it out with an open mind.

Flem · Mar 06, 2008, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

I disagreed earlier as well.

Two good points about AB above. Yes, if you're a realist you'll play with your team but have a build that can survive/operate independently. Also, let it be said that Warrior is not the most effective class for AB anyway. I play 70% Ele, 10% Ranger, 10% Mesmer, 10% Warrior. The 70% Ele is when I just want to be sure of getting the win and the rest is for a break.

Anyway here's the build I use; Strength is 14 after runes and Sword 12. 560 health and 30 Energy.

[WMo Charging Sword AB;OQMU0qHFZ6SSg9VIWAGMFNF5VgEA]

Anyone that has

a) A better WMo build for AB
b) A better W*other build for AB please show it and I will try it out with an open mind.

Can you post the skills here? I'm at work and don't have access to GW atm.

Tyla · Mar 06, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Eviscerate Warrior (Or Shock Axe, as it's mostly known) is the king of Axes.
Dragon Slasher is the king of Swords.
Devastating Hammer is the king of Hammers.

'Nuff said.
By the way, Weapon Mastery should be at least 14. Regardless of build, if you're planning on running something decent.